The Afro Punk Tour is making its way to Philly for a stop at South Street’s Theater of The Living Arts on October 30th. Along with it comes Saul Williams, a dynamic poet, musician and actor from New York’s mid 90s poetry scene who eventually broke into the recording industry with the help of legendary producer and Def Jam co-founder, Rick Rubin. With three albums, four books and one movie written so far, Williams has progressed and changed as an artist in a way few can claim to. In anticipation of his arrival, we spoke to him about his art and its changes over the years, his involvement with Afro Punk and even manage to pick his brain about politics for a bit.
Phrequency: When did you first break into poetry?
Saul Williams: Well, my background is in theater and I had every intention of following through with that, but while I was in graduate school for acting I started writing poetry inspired by the fact that I was required to keep a journal for the first time and growing up as an emcee at one point and listening to a lot of hip hop and also growing up in the theater dissecting a lot of scripts written by Shakespeare and what have you. Really I always felt a close affinity to language and so when I wrote and it wasn’t a class assignment, I found a type of lucidity on the page. I just felt free on the page and it just so happened that there was a little movement happening or beginning to hatch in New York at the time, and so I had a place where I could go and share stuff I wrote in my journal and everything kind of transpired from that.
P: What are your thoughts on the spoken word scene currently?
SW: You know, I never saw myself as part of a scene or whatever. What I saw happening almost felt like it was happening around me and I met a lot of other poets at that time who were discovering something in themselves and a needed to voice it. It was in many ways a response to everything we had grown up thinking and not daring to say and the music we had grown up listening to and how that was transforming. We were transforming.
When I was a part of it, it felt like an inevitable part of our conscious evolution. As my work evolved I found myself in different circles so I never really stayed attached to the scene as a scene beyond a certain point, so I’m not really one who can give some sort of judgment on it. I just know how it approaches people individually. I know that many people can reach a point individually where they need to say things that are on their mind. It’s great that there is a scene that allows that.
P: How did you end up hooking up with Trent Reznor for Niggy Tardust?
SW: Kind of the same way everything else has happened in life; I just followed my calling and have gone where I’ve been asked, whether that’s to speak at a school or tour with a group. In this case I was asked to tour with Nine Inch Nails and I said yes. So, I met Trent when I was his opening act and we clicked immediately and immediately began discussing the process of recording a project together and that’s how [The Inevitable Rise and Liberation of] NiggyTardust! came about. I had never thought about the possibility of working with him too deeply and I had never really planned on that being the way my new album would come about. It was the same way my first album happened with Rick Rubin. I was basically writing poetry and my film "Slam" had just came out and he as an executive thought I might have a career in music. I hadn’t really thought of music too deeply as a career. At that point I had thought of it as a kid as an emcee, but I hadn’t really pursued it. So, you know, things just kind of fell into place.
P: As for your more recent stuff, NGH WHT is coming out soon, correct?
SW: That album is available online. It’s the name of a poem in my book, "The Dead Emcee Scrolls", that was released in 2006, but surrounding that poem there is a swift composer of classical music named Thomas Kessler, and he composed a symphony around my reading of that poem. This symphony is performed by The Arditti Quartet, which is out of London, and so we released an audio recording of that symphony as we performed it a few times throughout Europe. I am working on a new album now, but that as of yet remains untitled and has no release date.
P: Looking back at your albums, how would you describe the transition from Amethyst Rock Star to where you currently are as an artist?
SW: Well, when I first signed with Rick Rubin to record Amethyst Rock Star, he gave me a copy of The Beatles’ White Album and said “Saul, you’re a great writer. This is song writing. Learn the difference.” I think all of my albums have been a progression of me learning the distinction between writing for the page and writing poetry and writing music, especially music that falls into an idea of music theory or a formulaic approach to music. I’ve basically been attempting to learn how to better express myself within that format, which would be no different than if I was trying to learn how to express myself within the format of a haiku or a sonnet. I enjoy music and I keep on pursuing it because it allows so many parts of me to breathe freely, and it’s a beautiful vehicle for me to explore how I feel, what I think, how I move, how I choose to move. I’m inspired by beats. I program beats like lots of hip hop producers do and a lot of times the stuff that I compose is the only stuff I can find that feeds me, so I write to fill the void between what I hear and what I wish I could hear. Those three albums are a progression of that desire I’ve had to hear certain things a certain way.
P: As far as the Afro Punk Tour, how did you hook up with those guys?
I think I’ve known those guys since Afro Punk’s inception. I’d already moved from New York by the time that they started it I think, but we had all met before and by the time of my second album coming out, I was clearly beginning to enter that territory. My second album was very influenced by groups like Bad Brains and it was very clear to me that the kind of music I wanted to make involved many of the elements that could easily be classified as punk. I liked the in your face bravado and I liked the rawness of it. That was the sound I was going for and that was the type of thing that the guys at Afro Punk of course appreciate. I’ve been doing shows with them for a few years now. So now their organization is getting on its feet and they have the first national tour and asked me to headline it, which is cool for me, and I love the idea of an alternative being put out there as a point of inspiration for people from the hood who feel like there’s only one means of expressing what it means to be real or be hard. It’s nice to remember that there’s several different avenues available to us musically, philosophically, religiously and that it’s promoting a greater sense of individuality, so I’m all for it.
P: Can you talk about current film projects?
SW: The only project that I’m involved with as it relates to acting right now are the ones that I’m writing and in the process of producing. They are moving at their own pace; no release date or shoot date for what I’m working on right now. As far as acting in other people’s project, I’m not really out there auditioning at this point.
P: All right, I have three quick questions from readers. First, in terms of your career, do you think you would be more mainstream if you came out in a different era, and if so, what era?
SW: That’s an interesting question, but I don’t romanticize the past and what I really fight for is the present. I fight for the present to represent all different facets of humanity and not be biased towards what can be categorized and what can be easily fit into a box. If at any time I felt like “oh, I wish I could be more mainstream” we know what that formula is about. It’s simply that I’ve made a choice to be me. Also, at the same time I acknowledge openly that the mainstream is the ocean and a lot of things we classify now as mainstream are like oil slicks on the ocean. It’s not necessarily representative of the depth of the sea. I think we need to enhance our understanding of what is mainstream, and I think that I’m as mainstream as I need or choose to be. I live off my art. Not always comfortably, but thankfully, and it’s a beautiful thing. To earn a living writing poetry is wonderful, and to sell the number of books, albums and all of those things are nice and representative of the wonderful age that we’re living in. So, I don’t really have any gropes with my place in things. I think it’s all a wonderful journey.
P: The second question: As far as the spoken word scene goes, you seem to be the most recognizable name to come from it. To what do you attribute your individual success coming out of that scene compared to most other people who are still kind of unrecognized?
SW: I don’t know. On one hand, my background is in theater and I rapped as a kid. I grew up prepared for entering the world of entertainment, which is strange to say because I don’t think people think of poetry as entertainment per se, and neither did I and neither would I. I wouldn’t have expected myself to be recognized for that art, which I didn’t focus on and didn’t think of as a kid growing up, but I was focused on the reality of entering the world in this way. That may be the difference.
Some poets really write out of a sense of being alone and feeling misunderstood, where I’m not really writing from that place, I’m writing more to share a space of communion. I’m open to the public. Honestly, I’m not sure if that’s a good answer. I don’t know the difference but I do know my background seems to have prepared me for the way things have panned out so far. I know that it doesn’t come as a shock to me.
P: And the final reader question, do you feel that black people get you?
SW: By black people I’m thinking they meant Black Americans. I’m speaking to you from Paris where I live right now with my daughter, Saturn, and I happen to be blessed to have met all sorts of different people and all shades of people and all different types of Black people from across the planet and I’ve connected with and felt respected and understood by many. So, within the confines of Black America, do I feel like people understand me? As much as anyone else. As much as I do myself. I would argue that it’s probably difficult to understand how one might choose to spend their time writing these little thoughts and these little stanzas and expecting them to have make any lasting impression, let alone pay a bill or anything of that sort.
I think that it’s not so much about being understood. I think at times it’s enough for some to be acknowledged, respected or allowed space simply to be. Wherever I fit in people’s understandings, I have found a place to be myself, and I’m not speaking of Paris, I found that space in New York, or when I was in Los Angeles or when I was in Atlanta. That space was within me. So, I’m not sure if Black people understand me. I’m sure there are some that think “what the heck?” and there are many that do. Many times when I’m creating, I’m creating for that little boy that once was me that yearned to see something different, that yearned to see something that didn’t have on the uniform, that only needed to see something a small thing to trigger him to think outside of the box and to realize that there were more options available to him than what was being propagated thought the media or what was available to him on the streets…that there were alternatives. I think whether they understand me or not, people understand that more and more each day, and that’s what’s important to me.
P: To touch on politics for a sec, seeing as how you were a vocal critic of the Bush administration, what have you thought about Obama’s work thus far in his presidency?
SW: I was, like many, extremely excited about Barack Obama winning the presidency, and so glad to vote and to play my little part, and I think that he is symbolic of a great amount of change that we need to see and have failed to see for quite some time. I think that change is something we all take part in and share in, so the idea of expecting him to be the one that makes all the change is sometimes overblown. I think that people don’t realize that if they want to see changes in global warming or how we treat each other or any of these things, that we have to make changes at home. I do think that in many ways the press and the people tend to go overboard in our expectations that are placed upon a singular, individual, man. I think that he has gracefully continued to play this role of being a symbol, and as a poet of course I have a great appreciation for symbols as I do metaphors and similes.
We need symbols to point to and look at and recognize our highest and truest selves. Someone who gracefully steps into that role is a gift us all. I think that winning that Nobel Peace Prize for him, I’m sure it came as a surprise to him as it did to all of us as well who said “wait, isn’t it a bit early?” Yet, truthfully I think what’s most amazing about the wisdom that goes to giving a prize to him would say, one, we are a nation that continues to be at war. We’re an extremely powerful nation and we also seem to be on the cusp of a paradigm shift of making strides towards what we would be and what we can and cannot imagine as possible. Here is this symbol that needs something to live up to more than being president. I think that him getting this award essentially does that. It makes him realize that now it’s even more important for him to bring this war to an end, simply for the sake of that award seeming rightfully placed and rightfully given so that he can feel at peace about receiving it. I think that it’s definitely an interesting choice, and like I said, it came as a surprise considering that we’re still at war. I basically hope that it inspires him to be more of himself and be more demanding in the face of the amount of people he has to interact with in his cabinet and on the hill that disagree with him and us who believe this war should come to an end now. I cannot imagine the amount of pressure in wanting to be fair and not wanting to be a dictator and wanting to persuade people to make the right choice as opposed to mandating some sort of executive order. I think that this will hopefully inspire him to realize where to put his weight and how to press forward towards peace and all the things that we hope for. I think it can do good.
Saul Williams will be performing alongside Black Landlord, CX KiDTRONiK, Tchaka Diallo, West Vienna and American Fangs at the T.L.A. on October 30th, 2009 at 9:00 p.m. Tickets are $18 in advance and $23 the day of the show. You can also purchase special 4-pack tickets for $13 from Live Nation, so grab some friends and check out something different!
In addition, be sure to check out www.saulwilliams.com, where you can find tons more info on the artist, as well as his music.
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